Posts by THE GLADIATOR

1495

An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

by AK - Jeff in

estimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.

that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.

still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.

THE GLADIATOR

AGuest – I have re-read you post in the light of this fresh Sunday morning. It seems that we arrive at the point where although I can contemplate an impersonal universal awareness that does not interfere the affairs of humans and is not responsible for our well being and does not have any need or interest in being worshiped - You believe in a personal God that communicates with humans and has rewards lined up for those that choose to put faith in, acknowledge and worship him.

For me to believe in such a being, I would be faced with the dilemma this thread originaly posed. You have written many pages in an attempt to explain how a loving all powerful God can allow so much suffering. I have tried to follow your reasoning but find I am still missing some major pieces of the jig-saw. I shall continue to read your posts and see if I can put more of the picture together.

I would feel more comfortable if you occasionally made some typing errors to reassure a mere mortal like me.

Take it easy with that shoulder.

1495

An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

by AK - Jeff in

estimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.

that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.

still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.

THE GLADIATOR

In post 1784 I said -“The question I ask is simply – Is the universe aware of itself? I believe it may be. Not awareness in the way humans think of awareness due to their overdeveloped right brain function.”

That should have read left brain function – The part of the brain that deals with cognitive thought.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------

“To go a little further, if you don't mind the stroll... if you think the universe (I say God - in whom all things hold together and have their e X istence, including the universe) is self-aware, and has an awareness of all things (a knowing of all things, because it permeates all things)... then perhaps there are some people/creatures who listen for or sense that being... due to the presence of this awareness/connection already in them?”

Tammy -I understand totally what you are saying and I think that many people, atheists include, would understand that a force greater than ourselves may pervades the universe. The question is whether that force or awareness is an impartial nameless part of existence - or a personal being that chooses at times to intervene in human’s affairs or at other times stands back and allows suffering.We are compelled to examine the morality of such a being.

You have presented a persuasive and obviously sincere argument for the existence of a personal God. You have found sufficient reason to believe in a personal God and his way of doing things. I am prepared to total alter my views if I can find sufficient evidence to dissolve my reticence in the existence of a loving God. The only way to bridge that gap is to take a leap of faith. Alas faith is not the possession of all people.

I shall continue to follow your posts looking for the missing link.

Take Care

............................................................................................................................................

As J88 said, “Intuition of the "Grandness of things" is not only for those who believe in 'god' or 'jesus'”

It becomes a matter of whether we put faith in.

Well said!

1495

An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

by AK - Jeff in

estimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.

that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.

still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.

THE GLADIATOR

" N.drew That is very well written Glad (can I call you glad?)"

You can call me anything you want. Glad will do fine - I have been called a lot worse!

***

"To go a little further, if you don't mind the stroll..."

Tammy - I always enjoy a stroll with you. Some interesting thoughts which I shall ponder in the morning. It is just gone midnight in the UK and I have just returned home from a social occasion.

***

AGuest - "No, seriously... I am asking: why does someone's ability to talk to another make that one personally responsible for the other?"

This may be true in human terms but for God to talk to humans would involve commitment of the highest order. You also raise some interesting points. I shall re-read your post in the morning too.

***

Thanks to you all and may your gods go with you.

1495

An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

by AK - Jeff in

estimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.

that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.

still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.

THE GLADIATOR

" I TOTALLY changed my opinion about how an atheist COULD be because of some of the non-theists here."

Tammy, Thanks for sharing your generous opinion of atheists on page 46. Give the nature of this thread I am surprised that you had no response to such a reconciliatory and understanding post. Then again perhaps I am not! Understanding another person’s point of view shows empathy not agreement. I never refer to myself as an atheist but I accept that it seems to be a default position for non-theists or those who cannot find evidence that a personal God exists, as defined in most major religions. I prefer to think of myself as an agnostic, if such a thing exists.

The question I ask is simply – Is the universe aware of itself? I believe it may be. Not awareness in the way humans think of awareness due to their overdeveloped right brain function. Such pervading awareness would be aware of the billions galaxies and the existence of life of which it would be a part. It would not be responsible for how the universe unfolds or joy or suffering on our planet. I have read a number of book by Lyle Watson which report on an interconnected ness of all living creatures that goes beyond the know laws of science.

If I were to believe in a personal God I would become angry at his complacency toward suffering on earth. Not just among humans but the carnage and suffering that has been at the centre of all life on earth in its struggle to survive, since the world began. I can accept that’s just the way it is. Survival of the fittest has been the defining intention among all life on earth. Humans and some animals show what we call love to their young and others within their social group. A closer study shows that social animals and humans benefit and survive better when they show ‘love’ to those in their social group. Both animals and humans will turn on those that threaten their existence even if they have loved them. Love is real – as real as being alive.

My personal conclusion is, at present is, that whatever universal awareness exists, it has not yet been explained by major religions or Holy books. If a God, or his Son, is able to personal talk to humans then they would be personal responsible for the well being of humans. That would take away free will and be contrary to how life on earth operates. I can contemplate the idea that an impersonal, impassive awareness exists that is not responsible for suffering or accountable to humans. We as humans could therefore not be held accountable to such a being. Perhaps there are thousand of planets with life on them that come and go over eternity.

The appeal of a personal Father and his son who talks to us is an understandable but a rather human concept. I have stated many times that I envy those who are able to have faith in powerful spiritual friends who have power over life and death. Alas if such a God existed I would be faced with solving the opening question that is the subject of this thread. Debating with other seekers of truth help us to develop empathy and understanidng and all contributions have value. There can be treasure in the seaweed.

87

Spong: "Why We Must Reclaim The Bible From Fundamentalists"

by leavingwt in

jw
friends

john shelby spong, the retired american bishop, has written a new book.

his article, below, briefly explains the purpose of his new book.

why we must reclaim the bible from fundamentalists.

THE GLADIATOR

It seems that up to date Christians have moved away from the idea that the Bible is the Word of God. So why not let Fundamentalists keep the Bible.

Christians who do not accept the Bible as God Word could compile a new fresh book based on their present understanding of God and his purpose in our day. It could include the parts that talk about Christ as the Word and more recent and relevant experiences from the time we live in.

It would save all this arguing about the value of the Bible. There would then be a clear distinction between Bible Christians and Living Word Christians. In case anyone should think I am being sarcastic let me assure you I am not. Having two different groups of Christians with conflicting ideas about the Bible and using the same book is not credible.

1495

An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

by AK - Jeff in

estimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.

that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.

still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.

THE GLADIATOR

My apologies N.drew It seems that I got confused and misunderstood your explanation of the race to the baptism(spelt the English way)Adham(spelt the Aguest way)Jah, justice, holding on to sin, war is against sin, surviving the end, the executioner, the sinner and the judge, rocket science and all that stuff or jazz as I like to call it.

Gladiators are not known for being that bright you know.

1495

An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

by AK - Jeff in

estimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.

that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.

still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.

THE GLADIATOR

The baptism is what will cause the death of the sinner.

N.drew As every gladiator knows, the idea of being a deliberate, godless sinner is to make sure that the sins we commits are of such a grave nature that death eventually results, due to the excessive nature of the depravity involved.

This saves your god the bother of making himself look bad by executing us. It also make both living and dying, tremendous fun.

1495

An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

by AK - Jeff in

estimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.

that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.

still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.

THE GLADIATOR

Yes Tammy that’s about it. Why would God help someone in a minor matter in the western world who prays to him? Yet people who have never had the opportunity to learn about salvation through Christ are ignored and allowed to starve because they were born in an undeveloped area of the world.

My feeling is that no being capable of intervention exists. We are on our own and have to make the best of it. I would rather not have come to that conclusion but any other option would leave me with the dilemma that this thread is about.

I have read everyone’s comments and realize that the subject has been thoroughly explored and no conclusion reached that everyone can agree on. You have put up a Spirited fight and defended your corner admirably.

1495

An Old Argument.... does it hold water?

by AK - Jeff in

estimates range from 4 million to 15 million children die from starvation each year on this planet.

that's between 500 and 1700 children a day, depending on what numbers you accept.

still, no matter which numbers you use, doesn't this make you arrive at one of the following conclusions?.

THE GLADIATOR

soft+gentle The quote in your post is indeed food for thought. If there were a God that intervened then we would lose our free will. I do realize that people starving in far away lands have already lost their free will and will in time loose their lives. Even so, once an all powerful being chooses to exercise its free will and make adjustments to our world it ceases to be our world.

That makes sense as far as it goes. The difficulty is that accepting this as a reason is that believers will tell us that God has at times intervened. Adam & Eve, Noah's flood, miracles of Jesus and execution of undesirable nations such as Sodom and Gomorra. Even if we discount all these biblical accounts we are still left with the fact that Christians ask God to intervene in their lives when they are say ill or in danger. Sometimes they believe he has helped, sometimes he ignors the plea. I have no answer to the dilemma.

Perhaps there is a God who goes around setting worlds in motion and moves off millions of light years away and only revisits every few thousand years? Or perhaps there is no such being?

13

When is it time to fully open up to a spouse

by ihadnoidea in

jw
friends

recently my very active jw wife has been more critical of the wt and some of their stances.

she has particularly been critical of topics that hit home to some of the things going on in lives of our families.

i am still going through the motions as an active servant, but i am mentally out.

THE GLADIATOR

The answers you have had are good advice. Listen but don’t lecture. If you attempt to make your wife move ahead too fast she may become defensive. An attack on her cherished beliefs could be seen as a personal attack on her. Softly, softly catchee monkey.